solo: Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan introducing themselves (GD Ruin your life)
Solo ([personal profile] solo) wrote in [community profile] sid_guardian2020-05-15 02:06 pm

Focus on: Zhu Jiu

(Zhu Jiu, and as a result the entire following discussion, are drama-only)

Zhu Jiu, our first and most interesting antagonist in the series, has questionable taste in accessories, and multi-coloured hair. He believes he's fighting the good fight, wants to be a hero, and is unflinchingly loyal. Also he is a-OK with killing people.



Backstory:
  • Joins the Dixing palace guard, wants to be a hero, looks up to the Black-Cloaked Envoy. His power hasn't awakened yet.
  • Stumbles upon Ye Zun's pillar one day and gets his head filled with nonsense about how the Black-Cloaked Envoy is a traitor.
  • Acts weirdly around the bully that is his captain, who asks what's up, so he tells him what he heard. Captain has a fit, tells him he's trash and sends him packing.
  • Stumbles back into Ye Zun's purview, who tells him he can be a hero of Dixing if he can prove his 'determination'.
  • So he kills the Captain, and when the Black-Cloaked Envoy questions him, he says it's because the Captain was a bully.
  • He also asks the Black-Cloaked Envoy if the tale about him being a traitor and having condemned them to live in darkness is true.
  • The Black-Cloaked Envoy tries to explain but when that's not good enough, he realizes Ye Zun got to this one, and decides to 'nip the evil in the bud' by cutting open his cheek.
  • At some point after that, Ye Zun enlists him in his crusade to exit the pillar and take over the world. For justice!

Zhu Jiu is first mentioned in episode 4, where the face-stealing girl says that he gave her and her boyfriend a 'task'. Later in the episode, he tries to glue Shen Wei's foot to the ground with dark energy. Shen Wei can't catch him, and we get to see him gloat.



Even later, he appears as a spectral voice and a little flash of static, in a dark alley Shen Wei is walking through. He taunts Shen Wei by threatening to give his secret away to Zhao Yunlan, and gets hit by some dark energy for his pains. At the end of the episode he's dramatically upset that his plan has been foiled so easily, and I guess that's what connects the face to the name, for people who still remember the earlier moment.

Clenched fist of emo.

A few episodes later (ep 7) he tries to break into the SID and is repelled by the shield. We learn he's after the Holy Tools.


Next episode he uses Ding Dun to get to Wang Zheng but kills him when he becomes inconvenient. Then he gatecrashes Shen Wei's meeting with Ms Forsythia, they fight, and he disappears with a 'you won't be able to stop us'. First indication that he's not working alone. We also notice that his power is teleportation of some sort.


Later in the episode he's trying to find the Hanga ruins and kills(?) the cop who tries to interfere. He really doesn't like humans.


Behold, my pretty locks.


In the Hanga cave (ep 10) he tortures Wang Zheng in order for her screams to attract Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan, who can free the Mountain-River-Awl. We learn that he's working for someone else. He manipulates Tan Xiao and Zheng Yi in order to get the Mountain-River Awl in ep 11, causes the wedding disaster in ep 12, and gives us two delightful moments in ep 13.


It's always so lovely when a bystander wonders that.

Oh yes, I will.

Zhao Yunlan gets him with his gun. Ya Qing helps him get away but is quite unsympathetic at the Warehouse of Emo in the next episode, informing him that his energy is draining, that he won't be able to do much for a bit, and that he needs to explain himself to the boss. He is largely annoyed that a mere human was able to hurt him.


We don't see him for a while, but by ep 16 he is back, manipulating Bao Laosan into trying to destroy the SID building with his Dixing power, and failing to back him up in episode 17. Later in the episode, Ya Qing confronts him about that and asks him how he'd feel if 'the boss' betrayed him like that. Zhu Jiu says he'd be fine with whatever the boss does: "He's the one who let me know the true voice of my heart." Cue ecstatic look.


Meanwhile, in Dixing, Zhao Yunlan finds out how Zhu Jiu's power works.

Next we get to the 'harvesting dark energy' arc and the underground fighting ring, where we find out that his boss is in need of great quantities of life energy from fit young people, which can be collected in a little flask. At the end of the episode he's very pleased with how his plan is coming together, but he's also slowly dying from the wound inflicted by Zhao Yunlan's gun, so he's making a final cunning plan.

The plan involves kidnapping Xiao Guo and Lao Chu and sticking them in a freezer, in order to blackmail Zhao Yunlan into handing over the Holy Tools. An injured Ye Huo is part of the captured team, and Xiao Guo's demand that he be treated brings us one of Zhu Jiu's best lines.


He also tries to get Lao Chu on-side out of a mistaken notion of kinship.

Yeah, wrong address.

His plan misfires and he gets caught by the SID, badly injured. he has no regrets except one:


This leads into the whole backstory thing which I couldn't be bothered to cap.

He manages to dupe Xiao Guo and escape, but only in order to let his life energy be absorbed into the flask, to be the final piece to bring his boss back. Contented smiling.


RIP, Wig Boy, you were fun.

Questions:
  1. How different would his story have been if the Black-Cloaked Envoy had sat him down for a talk?
  2. He has pretty standard, not bad looks in Dixing. What made him decide that straggly purple hair and Final Fantasy accessories were a good look for him? Just the scar or some goth emo thing?
  3. Could he have been redeemed in the show timeline if he had lived?
  4. Does Ya Qing regret his death once she has to work with the master of the Merit Brush?
  5. Chu Shuzhi follows the Black-Cloaked Envoy; Zhu Jiu follows Ye Zun. Both grew up wanting to be heroes. Both fell foul of authority. Discuss.
  6. How long has Ye Zun been playing the 'true voice of your heart' card and how did he ever come up with that?

Fanworks

The Zhu Jiu tag on AO3 isn't used much, but there are some nice stories there. (Caveat, I only discovered the long one by demitas while researching this, and haven't had time to read the full story yet.)

Voice of the Heart (2909 words) by Wei
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Yè Zūn & Zhú Jiǔ
Characters: Yè Zūn, Zhú Jiǔ

Ye Zun cannot say for certain if he's ever had a friend, but there is no doubt in his mind that the closest to it was Zhu Jiu.

Calling the Lost Sheep Home (3500 words) by ExtraPenguin
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Yè Zūn & Zhú Jiǔ
Characters: Zhú Jiǔ, Zhào Yúnlán, Yè Zūn, Shěn Wēi, Chǔ Shùzhī

Zhu Jiu joined Ye Zun because he wanted to make Dixing a better place. Then he discovers that the Boss doesn't want to make Dixing a better place or improve the lot of Dixingians, but rather destroy the world and everyone in it, Dixingians included.

Overwritable (2444 words) by ExtraPenguin
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Characters: Yè Zūn, Zhú Jiǔ, Zhào Yúnlán, Shěn Wēi

When he returns to the SID from capturing Zhu Jiu, Zhao Yunlan learns that the Sky Pillar has exploded. He is obviously worried at what this potentially-escaped criminal is going to do next.
(Ye Zun has unexpected plans.)

Rootless (10554 words) by demitas
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Yè Zūn/Zhú Jiǔ
Characters: Yè Zūn, Zhú Jiǔ

The Hallows send Zhu Jiu back in time, where he finds a Ye Zun who is little like the Boss he's familiar with, but who needs his help all the same.


So - come and talk about Zhu Jiu! Share links to meta, picspams, and related fanworks, new or old! Self-recs whole-heartedly encouraged. Basically, this is the place for anything you want to say or link to about Zhu Jiu.
extrapenguin: Zhu Jiu from Guardian enthusing about his self-insert RPF (zhu jiu enthused)

[personal profile] extrapenguin 2020-05-15 03:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Zhu Jiu! I love him. I'm quite sad that his replacement was so inferior in every respect.

How different would his story have been if the Black-Cloaked Envoy had sat him down for a talk?
I think this depends on the place it happens in canon. If it's before the second visit to Ye Zun (and consequent murder), it'd probably succeed in making Zhu Jiu stop going down that path. Especially if it's before the first visit, it'd end with Zhu Jiu being the head of the Envoy fanclub and following him around like an overzealous puppy.

He has pretty standard, not bad looks in Dixing. What made him decide that straggly purple hair and Final Fantasy accessories were a good look for him? Just the scar or some goth emo thing?
Dixing is made of lava and melodrama. Its denizens likewise. Once he was free of the confines of uniform, he could indulge in his natural love of melodrama! Alternatively, he got really into Final Fantasy.

Could he have been redeemed in the show timeline if he had lived?
Assuming that the only divergence would be episode 20, it ... would be hard, and would require certain takes (like Zhu Jiu being under some manner of mind control) to work, but it should be possible to send him to Dixing to improve his compatriots' lives. He's an idealist who joined up with Ye Zun in part due to wanting to be a hero; he'd make a decent enough reformer, if given some backup.

Does Ya Qing regret his death once she has to work with the master of the Merit Brush?
I mean, he was pretty racist about Yashou and OTT, but I think she did, if only because Wang Xiangyang is ... Wang Xiangyang.

Chu Shuzhi follows the Black-Cloaked Envoy; Zhu Jiu follows Ye Zun. Both grew up wanting to be heroes. Both fell foul of authority. Discuss.
I actually think they're foils of each other: Chu Shuzhi is the criminal Shen Wei turned into a respectable man, while Zhu Jiu is the respectable man Ye Zun turned into a criminal.

How long has Ye Zun been playing the 'true voice of your heart' card and how did he ever come up with that?
He's been there for 10k years, so I assume he's had time to refine his spiel. Or try lots of them out of boredom. TBH I think he's gone insane in his oubliette, and thus terrible decisions

Fanworks
I greatly enjoyed the demitas fic and would second the rec. Some others I've enjoyed, all by [archiveofourown.org profile] draconicsockpuppet
The Great Goose Heist, Zhu Jiu & Ya Qing, where they try to get geese to steal the Hallows for them.
Believe in You, Zhu Jiu/Ye Zun, where Zhu Jiu gets the Boss out of the pillar, but he has amnesia.
Waiting for a Goose Like You, Zhu Jiu/Ye Zun, where Ye Zun gets out of the pillar but gets temporarily transformed into a goose.

(And thank you for the recs!)
maggie33: Infanta Margerita - Las Meninas, Diego Velazquez (Default)

[personal profile] maggie33 2020-05-15 04:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually think they're foils of each other: Chu Shuzhi is the criminal Shen Wei turned into a respectable man, while Zhu Jiu is the respectable man Ye Zun turned into a criminal.

Oh, I love that. I never thought about it that way, but yes, I agree.
rheasilvia: (Guardian Zhu Jiu)

[personal profile] rheasilvia 2020-05-15 10:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Especially if it's before the first visit, it'd end with Zhu Jiu being the head of the Envoy fanclub and following him around like an overzealous puppy.

I agree, but I wonder how long it would last... I think Zhu Jiu could easily have been recruited to the Envoy's cause at that point, and would definitely have been all-in and manically aglow for the cause. But I tend to think that what we see of his personality is not all mind control, but partly just who he is as a person, and so I imagine he would eventually have problems and grow discontent, simply because he would not fit in well with the Envoy's crowd - and so would not receive the validation and sense of importance that he craves.

Chu Shuzhi is the criminal Shen Wei turned into a respectable man, while Zhu Jiu is the respectable man Ye Zun turned into a criminal.

Ooh, I like this - yes, absolutely. And their personalities are opposites, as well, which completes the dichotomy.
extrapenguin: Zhu Jiu from Guardian enthusing about his self-insert RPF (zhu jiu enthused)

[personal profile] extrapenguin 2020-05-16 12:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I tend to think that what we see of his personality is not all mind control, but partly just who he is as a person, and so I imagine he would eventually have problems and grow discontent, simply because he would not fit in well with the Envoy's crowd - and so would not receive the validation and sense of importance that he craves.
He's an idealist who wants validation, but I don't think the violence is inherent to him – if he threw his lot in with Shen Wei, he could end up just as wholeheartedly throwing himself at politics. (Depending on how Shen Wei dealt with this earnest youth asking him about how to reform Dixing/how he could best help the Black-Cloaked Envoy. This would depend on Shen Wei's political and social acumen a bit, but if he does anything but tells Zhu Jiu to keep everything as it is, it'll probably end without much disillusionment on Zhu Jiu's part.)
trobadora: (Shen Wei - energy)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, what you say about Zhu Jiu on the Envoy's side is how I see it as well.
extrapenguin: Zhu Jiu from Guardian enthusing about his self-insert RPF (zhu jiu enthused)

[personal profile] extrapenguin 2020-05-16 12:31 pm (UTC)(link)
He never started out actually wanting to be a 'bad guy'. I was wondering if it would work if someone could just credibly persuade him that he's not helping anyone but a murderous megalomaniac... I guess a bit like in that one story of yours... He strikes me as a fundamentally decent guy.
I think the big difference between him and all the other villains is that he's an idealist at heart. Ya Qing's also driven by principles, but she's much more of a pragmatist IMO. (And everyone else seems to be driven by misplaced revenge...) So give him someone with a pragmatic streak to sanity check his proposals and give him free rein over Dixing, boom, stuff improves! He'd have to learn some administration-related skills, but make him part of a team and he could effect change.
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2020-05-16 06:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Dixing is made of lava and melodrama.

Imagine the tourism posters!
trobadora: (Ye Zun)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
but it should be possible to send him to Dixing to improve his compatriots' lives

Do we ever see Zhu Jiu try to make anyone's life better? Or even show sympathy to them? He seems to use and discard his fellow Dixingren very easily, and I'd expect that attitude to come through no matter what goal he's working for ...

Chu Shuzhi is the criminal Shen Wei turned into a respectable man, while Zhu Jiu is the respectable man Ye Zun turned into a criminal.

I like this parallel! They're definitely foils in that sense.
extrapenguin: Zhu Jiu from Guardian enthusing about his self-insert RPF (zhu jiu enthused)

[personal profile] extrapenguin 2020-05-22 09:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Do we ever see Zhu Jiu try to make anyone's life better? Or even show sympathy to them? He seems to use and discard his fellow Dixingren very easily, and I'd expect that attitude to come through no matter what goal he's working for ...
He's a zealot who wants to be a hero to his people. Converting him (especially baby him) into someone who's out to improve his people's lives on the mass level (legal reform, Treaty renegotiations, etc) would be relatively easy work, even if he wouldn't be the best colleague to anyone.
trobadora: (Ye Zun)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm honestly not seeing how it would be easy? Caring about whether other people are doing well, even if Zhu Jiu could get there, doesn't seem like something that would come easy to him.

ETA: There are a lot of reformers out there who care very much about their idea of how the world should be made better, but don't listen to what the people affected would want. And then they react badly when those people are insufficiently grateful for their efforts ...
Edited 2020-05-22 21:23 (UTC)
china_shop: A mostly black & white silhouette of the Envoy entering a portal (Guardian - portal)

[personal profile] china_shop 2020-05-22 09:47 pm (UTC)(link)
There are a lot of reformers out there who care very much about their idea of how the world should be made better, but don't listen to what the people affected would want. And then they react badly when those people are insufficiently grateful for their efforts ...

Yeah, this. I just looked up his backstory from ep 17, where he says, "I want to be like the Black-Cloaked Envoy and other seniors. Play my part in society." To me, that sounds like he's at least as motivated by a quest for respect, power and glory as a chance to do good for Dixing.
extrapenguin: Zhu Jiu from Guardian enthusing about his self-insert RPF (zhu jiu enthused)

[personal profile] extrapenguin 2020-05-23 10:03 am (UTC)(link)
Exploit his desire to be a hero and his Envoy worship? "A true hero is someone who cares for the people at large and does his level best to improve their lot." + the occasional motivational speech as maintenance. He always struck me as someone not prone to regrets who did genuinely think Ye Zun was the best deal ever for Dixing and that sacrifices must be made for the greater good, if only due to mind control. Also rather young when the Dixing bits happened, which would mean he'd probably settle into something more reasonable when poked onto a reasonable path.
maggie33: (zhu yilong 1)

[personal profile] maggie33 2020-05-15 04:12 pm (UTC)(link)
the Warehouse of Emo

LOL I love this description. I admit that I didn’t pay much attention to Zhu Jiu during my first watching, I even found him a bit boring then. But I always liked his purple OTT hair. :) And he grew on me during many later re-watchings, and now I like him a lot. And his relationship with Ye Zun is fascinating. And yes, it does remind me a little of Chu Shuzhi’s loyalty and devotion to Black-Cloaked Envoy.

As for fanworks I really liked this Outsider POV fic by china_shop - a bad town for such a pretty face
rheasilvia: (Guardian Zhu Jiu)

[personal profile] rheasilvia 2020-05-15 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
His hair! Heee, yes, that was what first struck me, as well - and the increasingly battered state of his purple octopus wig. It is an outward sign of his general state of mind, I'd say. ;-)

Zhu Jiu's loyalty and devotion impressed me, too, and surprised me on first viewing. I hadn't expected him to have that much substance, but he does.
maggie33: Infanta Margerita - Las Meninas, Diego Velazquez (Default)

[personal profile] maggie33 2020-05-16 08:42 am (UTC)(link)
Zhu Jiu's loyalty and devotion impressed me, too, and surprised me on first viewing. I hadn't expected him to have that much substance, but he does.

Yes, it was the same with me. When I started to pay attention to him I was impressed that actually his character was developed pretty well with consistent motivation. And his loyalty speaks to my id, so that helped, too. :D
china_shop: Close-up of Zhao Yunlan grinning (Default)

[personal profile] china_shop 2020-05-22 04:01 am (UTC)(link)
♥ ♥ ♥
rheasilvia: (Guardian Zhu Jiu)

[personal profile] rheasilvia 2020-05-15 04:31 pm (UTC)(link)
questionable taste in accessories

Surely you don't mean the pointless hand ornament? How dare! I mean, yes, pointless, but come on, it goes with the hair. ;-) (I... have actually looked for a hand ornament like that. Do not judge me. *g*)

Anyway: Wig Boy is my favorite antagonist, too! He is actually more competent and effective than it might seem from his over-the-top posing and pouting. He has Style. And he is absolutely, unflinchingly loyal to the end. I give him some credit for being willing to die for his hero and his cause, even if he did choose someone who absolutely did not deserve that kind of loyalty or sacrifice.

Clenched fist of emo.

LOL, yes! He is indeed very emo. In fact, his melodramatic emo ways honestly grew on me. ;-)

How different would his story have been if the Black-Cloaked Envoy had sat him down for a talk?

To me it seems likely that Zhu Jiu had psychopathy issues from the start, and Ye Zun only hooked into them rather than creating them wholesale. So at the point Zhu Jiu actually meets the Envoy, even a good long talk with him very likely would not have helped; he had decided that he was hard-done by at this point, and that he was not going to take it anymore, and had already started down a path he was not willing (or perhaps able) to diverge from. I'm pretty sure that no matter what the Envoy could have said and done at this point, it was already too late.

Now, if the Envoy had arrived on the scene earlier, before Zhu Jiu ever met Ye Zun. I think it was inevitable that he would find an ideology to seize on and become a violent radical in some way or another - but he might have found a different ideology and hero.

Say, if the Envoy had defended Zhu Jiu against his captain in some way, or said something in defence of the powerless Dixing people - perhaps that they are just as important and valuable as those with powers, and have just as much to contribute... maybe then, he'd have fixated on the Envoy instead of Ye Zun.

That would have been very interesting, because his basic personality would still not be any better than what we know, even though he's be earnestly trying to do what the Envoy wanted of him.

This ties into your other question a bit - Chu Shuzhi is just a much, much better man than Zhu Jiu in general, so even if they had both been loyal to the same man, they would still have been radically different in outlook, approach and morals. Sooner or later, the Envoy might have had to lock up Zhu Jiu no matter what, because of the collateral damage and general viciousness.

And of course, at some point being constantly corrected and reprimanded might well have caused Zhu Jiu to turn against the Envoy later on. He was never in that situation with Ye Zun, because Ye Zun rewarded his viciousness and he felt validated and important. He would not have felt validated if he'd been following the Envoy, and I think that would have made all the difference.

What made him decide that straggly purple hair and Final Fantasy accessories were a good look for him?

HE IS A FASHION ICON. Do not disrespect the emo!

Could he have been redeemed in the show timeline if he had lived?

I don't think so. He didn't want to be redeemed, and I don't think it was possible for him to let go of the notions he'd seized on at Ye Zun's coaxing.

Does Ya Qing regret his death once she has to work with the master of the Merit Brush?

Oh god yes. So much. He was annoying, sure, but he was still somewhat competent.
Edited 2020-05-15 16:32 (UTC)
rheasilvia: (Guardian Zhu Jiu)

[personal profile] rheasilvia 2020-05-17 03:06 pm (UTC)(link)
You can get that type of hand ornament on Ebay, too - just not like Wig Boy's version; most of them seem to have skulls and other such things on them, which, nah. :-) If you think they might have Wig Boy's version at Mandarake, I will send you a screenshot! (Why yes I do have one, why do you ask? erm. *g*)

The question of psychopathy/whether Zhu Jiu would have been okay if he hadn't come across Ye Zun... it's a good question, and I'm not entirely set on my kneejerk response of "he would have gone bad anyway". But my initial response (which I still consider the most likely) is the result of how he reacts to Ye Zun; that he seems to do what he does in response to Ye Zun's "persuasion" mostly of his own free will, and that he reacts the way he does.

Unlike other people we see hypnotized by Ye Zun later, Zhu Jiu doesn't act like a sleepwalker; he seems to be the master of his own actions (I think Ye Zun doesn't have nearly as much power yet and can't actually control people the way he can later, but that's a different issue). That he accepts Ye Zun's poisonous lies as easily as he does probably does have to do with magic, since Ye Zun's lines are bad enough that he needs magic to make them convincing *g*. But that Zhu Jiu jumps straight to murder in response, and shows no remorse afterwards, seemed to be his own choice to me. A non-psychopath might have begun rebelling more and more, questioning things, rousing the rabble, started radicalizing himself... and might well have ended up in the same place eventually. But to jump straight to murder?

So that's where my impression that he already had issues came from: his near-instant turn-around and the eager - and instantly murderous - way he embraces a leader and a path that seems more rewarding to him.

So, headcanon time: Basically I think Ye Zun has been trying this with pretty much every person who came across his field of rubble, without enough oomph to erase their own will, as he can later. And Zhu Jiu is the one in whom it takes, because he already has the seeds in him. He's the one who takes it to murder and thus throws his life away, dedicating it to Ye Zun through a combination of choice and no other options being left. Meanwhile, the other people Ye Zun whispered to are probably the ones spreading the rumors the Envoy is a traitor... but that's all they're doing. Because they are not psychopaths. ;-)
china_shop: Close-up of Zhao Yunlan grinning (Default)

[personal profile] china_shop 2020-05-22 04:17 am (UTC)(link)
But that Zhu Jiu jumps straight to murder in response, and shows no remorse afterwards, seemed to be his own choice to me.

*nodnod*

I feel like he quite enjoys the killing, too. I never get a sense of distaste or even Ya Qing's businesslike attitude from him. Except for his captain, it's not about vengeance. He gives the impression of relishing it, and even tries to kill Ding Dun, who was on his side.

Like, for him the whole thing is a chess game which he's determined Ye Zun will win at any cost. People -- human or Dixingren -- are mere pieces to be used or sacrificed (or broken in two in a rage). I don't think the other people Ye Zun recruited gave that impression(?), so it must be something inherent to Zhu Jiu.
trobadora: (Ye Zun)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 08:19 pm (UTC)(link)
But that Zhu Jiu jumps straight to murder in response, and shows no remorse afterwards, seemed to be his own choice to me. A non-psychopath might have begun rebelling more and more, questioning things, rousing the rabble, started radicalizing himself... and might well have ended up in the same place eventually. But to jump straight to murder?

Yeah, agreed. He really goes from "loyal guard" to "unrepentant murderer" in the blink of an eye, with no hesitation.

Meanwhile, the other people Ye Zun whispered to are probably the ones spreading the rumors the Envoy is a traitor... but that's all they're doing. Because they are not psychopaths. ;-)

Oooh, I like this! This makes so much sense to me. :D
trobadora: (Ya Qing)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
To me it seems likely that Zhu Jiu had psychopathy issues from the start, and Ye Zun only hooked into them rather than creating them wholesale.

Your view of Zhu Jiu is very close to mine! Thanks for writing all this out and expressing it better than I could.

That would have been very interesting, because his basic personality would still not be any better than what we know, even though he's be earnestly trying to do what the Envoy wanted of him.

Yes! This! I can't see him getting along well in this situation, and he would grow discontented very quickly. Because Zhu Jiu wants to be right, and be validated for it, and doesn't show any willingness to question himself at all. Ya Qing hesitates, sometimes shows kindness in unexpected places, and generally is doing what she's doing for what she thinks is the greater good. Zhu Jiu tells himself it's for the greater good because that justifies him and absolves him from having to examine himself too closely.

He didn't want to be redeemed, and I don't think it was possible for him to let go of the notions he'd seized on at Ye Zun's coaxing.

I agree that he didn't want to, but it would be really interesting to try and figure out what could get him to actually look at himself and want to be better ...
cyberbrain: zhu yilong as ye zun sitting and reading (ye zun reading)

[personal profile] cyberbrain 2020-05-16 05:29 am (UTC)(link)
Another Zhu Jiu lover here. He was so weird and I've seen lots of hate for him in YouTube comments but, honestly, #cantrelate.

How different would his story have been if the Black-Cloaked Envoy had sat him down for a talk?
It really depends on when that talk would happen.
Prior to meeting Ye Zun would've probably entirely prevented Zhu Jiu from turning bad. Shortly after meeting Ye Zun would have worked also. In fact, I believe that up until the encounter that went so wrong, Zhu Jiu would have listened if he were to be given advice/guidance by the Envoy.

I think two important things are at play in that scene:
1) people don't like being rejected (especially by those they like)
2) people don't like being told they're wrong

So in Zhu Jiu's case, he didn't just get rejected by his hero, he was told he was wrong AND was also punished. Unknowingly, Shen Wei created an enemy that day, when he could have instead saved him. I think that was the last point when a talk would have been effective because that was the last time Zhu Jiu cared about the Black-Cloaked Envoy's opinion.

He has pretty standard, not bad looks in Dixing. What made him decide that straggly purple hair and Final Fantasy accessories were a good look for him? Just the scar or some goth emo thing?
I think he looks better with the wig.
Hmm... maybe he wanted to be different from his old self?

(probably off topic) I actually like his clothes but think the stylist or fashion department or whatever it's called didn't have time/money to fix them up. I think his clothes would have fit his character better if they appeared more worn (if they had some holes and maybe dirt on them).

Could he have been redeemed in the show timeline if he had lived?
Probably. I believe that anything can be made reasonable with enough writing. In his case, it wouldn't take much (writing) to redeem him because he never did anything that bad.
The problem was that Zhu Jiu didn't want to be redeemed. He didn't even want to be saved (spared).

cyberbrain: zhu yilong as ye zun sitting and reading (ye zun reading)

[personal profile] cyberbrain 2020-05-16 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
if the Envoy hadn't decided he was no longer worth talking to
Which, if you think about it, doesn't really fit much with Shen Wei's character. He keeps giving second chances to people but... for some reason not to Zhu Jiu?

Except kill lots of people.
:D Just side characters.
extrapenguin: Masked man with floofy hair smiles smugly (ye zun smile)

[personal profile] extrapenguin 2020-05-16 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Which, if you think about it, doesn't really fit much with Shen Wei's character. He keeps giving second chances to people but... for some reason not to Zhu Jiu?
My personal theory is that something did happen, and Zhu Jiu ran to Ye Zun for a second time, and then Ye Zun tampered with the memories to make his new minion more amenable to his cause and mind control. So Shen Wei was probably present, but the scar might've come from the guard captain fighting back or something else, and the entire exchange we saw was probably heavily edited.
cyberbrain: zhu yilong as ye zun sitting and reading (ye zun reading)

[personal profile] cyberbrain 2020-05-16 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
That's a fascinating theory! I like it!
feklar42: I needed to spend more time online. Not. (Default)

[personal profile] feklar42 2020-05-18 01:08 am (UTC)(link)
There is not much more to be said about the *wig*, but, that wig… LOL
trobadora: (Ye Zun)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 08:02 pm (UTC)(link)
He believes he's fighting the good fight, wants to be a hero, and is unflinchingly loyal. Also he is a-OK with killing people.

I can never decide if he really fully believes he's fighting the good fight, or if that's what he tells himself because it justifies everything he does. If that's what he tells himself so he doesn't have to question his gut reaction or his actions, and maybe find himself wanting in some way. He never does seem to hesitate to kill or hurt anyone. Do we ever actually see him be kind to anyone? I can't remember anything.

I find him really interesting, personally, but not at all likeable. And not just because he's such a bigot. Even the whole "greater good of Dixing" thing never seems to extend to wanting other Dixingren to have good lives, or regretting their loss - he uses and discards them without a care. IMO his (misplaced) loyalty to Ye Zun is his only admirable quality.

The Black-Cloaked Envoy tries to explain but when that's not good enough, he realizes Ye Zun got to this one, and decides to 'nip the evil in the bud' by cutting open his cheek.

I never understood that scene. Either I'm missing something here, or Shen Wei's behaviour makes zero sense. I can't make heads or tails of what he might be thinking. What's the cheek-cutting supposed to accomplish?!

How different would his story have been if the Black-Cloaked Envoy had sat him down for a talk?

I think he'd have latched onto Shen Wei at first, but quickly become disillusioned when he realised being on the side of his hero doesn't mean he's always going to be right, that it comes with expectations he may not be willing or able to meet.

He'd probably have had a much slower slide into villainy rather than jumping in head-first, or if he'd managed to avoid that altogether he'd have been very unhappy. What he wants most, IIRC, is to be validated without strings attached, and he's not going to get that from Shen Wei.

He has pretty standard, not bad looks in Dixing. What made him decide that straggly purple hair and Final Fantasy accessories were a good look for him? Just the scar or some goth emo thing?

He knew it'd suit him? Honestly, I think he looks better with the purple hair.

Could he have been redeemed in the show timeline if he had lived?

I don't think anyone is ever fully beyond redemption. So yes, he could have, but it would have been difficult because first you'd have to get him to want to change, and I have no idea what could make that happen.

Does Ya Qing regret his death once she has to work with the master of the Merit Brush?

Of course. Not because she liked Zhu Jiu (he was too much of a bigot to her), but because Wang Xiangyang is so fucking annoying. *g*
china_shop: Close-up of Zhao Yunlan grinning (Default)

[personal profile] china_shop 2020-05-22 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
He never does seem to hesitate to kill or hurt anyone. Do we ever actually see him be kind to anyone? I can't remember anything.

Me neither. That's such a good point.

Even the whole "greater good of Dixing" thing never seems to extend to wanting other Dixingren to have good lives, or regretting their loss - he uses and discards them without a care.

Yes! When Ya Qing chastises him for not backing up Bao Laosan like he said he would, they have this exchange:

Zhu Jiu: What a trash power! The time I wasted talking him into it!
Ya Qing: You said you'd back him up. You're both Dixing people.
Zhu Jiu: A Dixing person who can't handle humans? How could he be my compatriot?
Ya Qing: You really are hopeless.
Zhu Jiu: If the Boss was standing here today as the one completing the mission, he'd do the same.

I think Zhu Jiu expects and respects that kind of callousness and selfish calculation. His "greater good" is pretty divorced from the people it purports to be helping.

Honestly, I think he looks better with the purple hair.

Ha, me too. I think his power emo goth thing is really expressive. (Oh, hey, maybe the hidden portal to Haixing comes up in a goth club or something, or an alternative hairdressers, so people keep mistakenly thinking that it's a good way to pass unnoticed? Did Sha Ya have colourful hair in her pre-Haixing backstory? I can't remember.)

So yes, he could have, but it would have been difficult because first you'd have to get him to want to change, and I have no idea what could make that happen.

I'm trying to imagine him redeemed by love, but I think he'd be the kind of guy who'd want to save/protected his loved one while letting the rest of the world go to hell. And possibly enjoy the idea that they were the only two survivors, because no one else was worthy.
trobadora: (Shen Wei & Ye Zun - hands)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 11:00 pm (UTC)(link)
His "greater good" is pretty divorced from the people it purports to be helping.

Yes, that's a great way to put it.

IIRC Sha Ya had much the same hair in her flashbacks. But I don't think it's actually dyed? She has colourful things braided into her hair instead.

I'm trying to imagine him redeemed by love

Yeah, I don't think that would work. Not that I know what would - except now that I think of it, maybe he's like Ye Zun in that respect: maybe he'd have to hit rock bottom first before he could change ...
china_shop: Close-up of Zhao Yunlan grinning (Default)

[personal profile] china_shop 2020-05-22 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
But I don't think it's actually dyed? She has colourful things braided into her hair instead.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. *does not get distracted wondering about Dixing hair care and hair salons*

except now that I think of it, maybe he's like Ye Zun in that respect: maybe he'd have to hit rock bottom first before he could change ...

*nodnod* But even then. Ye Zun had a good start, then a lot of trauma before he turned evil, so there is somewhere -- buried deeeeep inside -- to go back to... With Zhu Jiu?
trobadora: (Ye Zun)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-05-22 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
We meet Zhu Jiu as an adult; we don't know what he might have been like as a kid. Or what made him the way he is. I think that's one of the reasons it's so hard to figure out what could make him change.
Edited (typo) 2020-05-22 23:24 (UTC)
trobadora: (Black-Cloaked Envoy)

[personal profile] trobadora 2020-08-07 11:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Coming back here with a screencap of Zhu Jiu that I just had to make - I came across this frame while skipping through for something else altogether, and couldn't resist:

Zhu Jiu in episode 8

(episode 8, 18:34 - click for larger)

So pretty!
china_shop: Three-quarter profile of Shen Wei being unimpressed (Guardian - Shen Wei srsly?)

[personal profile] china_shop 2020-08-07 11:15 pm (UTC)(link)
[personal profile] trobadora and I were just trying to figure out when and how Zhu Jiu finds out Shen Wei is the Envoy, and I thought I'd put our conclusion/speculations here:

In episode 3, Zhu Jiu is monitoring the Wang Yike case, assessing her as a potential recruit, presumably using the Crows as scouts. He likes Wang Yike's power ("perfect for destroying everything"), but then gets distracted by Shen Wei ("being able to secretly neutralise Wang Yike's power? A university professor?"). (Possibly the hospital attacker in episode 2 has also mentioned Shen Wei's immunity to powers?)

Zhu Jiu starts following/stalking Shen Wei, and later that episode finds him walking through the city using dark energy vision. (More speculation: the dark energy vision opens a communication channel with other dark energy beings and objects. Shen Wei is looking for the Hallows, so he must be "open", and Zhu Jiu can't resist taunting him. This would explain their seeming to be telepathic.)

Zhu Jiu discovers Shen Wei is looking for the Hallows, plus there's the fact of the dark energy vision/communication power. So he starts toying with Shen Wei to see how he'll react (fixing his foot in place with dark energy) -- or hamstringing him so Zhu Jiu can get to the Hallows first.

Episode 4, at night in the park, Zhu Jiu traps Shen Wei again, and Shen Wei frees himself. Shen Wei says, "I assure you, no matter what it takes, I will find you." He starts searching, but is interrupted by ZYL coming back. Zhu Jiu says, "It's getting more and more interesting."

By later in episode 4, Zhu Jiu knows. He taunts again, saying, "The famous Black-Cloaked Envoy is nothing more than this. Go on. Didn't you say you'll find me no matter the means? I guessed correctly -- you are restraining yourself. You're afraid your identity will endanger the people at SID. It's tough working alone. Why don't I let Zhao Yunlan know your little secret?"
Edited 2020-08-07 23:17 (UTC)